Motorhome Forums, Motorhome Discussion, Motorhome Chat - Reply to Topic

Thread: Spain and 'A' Frames Reply to Thread
Title:
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Motorhome Forums, Motorhome Discussion, Motorhome Chat forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










  Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

  Topic Review (Newest First)
13-03-2015 23:03
neilmac
Quote:
Originally Posted by peribro View Post
It's completely, totally and utterly irrelevant what the law in this country does or does not say when it comes to towing a toad on an A-frame in Spain. It is also irrelevant what the DfT says, what European law says and indeed what Spanish law says. The fact is that people get stopped by the police, fined and made to decouple. Isn't that the only knowledge that is relevant? It's then up to each person what they do or do not do about it.
Eventual results of the poll associated with this thread will be interesting:

https://forums.motorhomefacts.com/114...ames-poll.html
13-03-2015 20:53
peribro It's completely, totally and utterly irrelevant what the law in this country does or does not say when it comes to towing a toad on an A-frame in Spain. It is also irrelevant what the DfT says, what European law says and indeed what Spanish law says. The fact is that people get stopped by the police, fined and made to decouple. Isn't that the only knowledge that is relevant? It's then up to each person what they do or do not do about it.
13-03-2015 19:22
nicholsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by namder View Post
But they are not legal in this country. See my earlier post.

John
John

I cannot see anything in your previous post which says 'A'-frames are not legal in 'England and Wales', assuming that is what you are referring to by 'this country', since you state you live in N. Wales. A principle of English Law is that anything is legal unless forbidden by Statute or under a decison of a Court of Law which bids a lower Court. i do not see anything in your previous post indicating to anything making 'A;0frames illegal, providing they adhere to braking, lighting and signage regulations.

As for the assertion by the Dft, if they did make that asssertion, about non-application of the 'Vienna Convention' to subsequent rules, applying that thinking would make all Construction and Use legislation void across boundaries, equally Driving Licences issued under legislation after 1948.

Geoff
13-03-2015 19:20
DJP It is really very very simple

A Frames are definitely NOT illegal in Spain........ There it is, simple.

What IS illegal though is towing one motorised vehicle with another. Despite country or origin regarding the toad as a trailer (to satisfy UK regs) cannot become a trailer as there is still a working drivable car in place, and no, removing a component will not get you round the problem. You need to be a registered recovery/breakdown company to tow any vehicle behind another.

This law also applies in Germany and Portugal, but they turn a blind eye to it, there again, they don't need the cash that Spain so desperately needs.

It's not worth it. First fine is usually 40 euro, second can be as much as 8000 with car impounded until paid in full.

As an ex A Framer who used to tow around all of Europe including Spain, I now only use a trailer. I have many friends in the Auto-Trail Owners' Club who have been stopped and fined over the last two years. (All of whom were fined 40 euro and made to unhitch).
13-03-2015 19:01
113016 I must admit, it does get quite boring with repeated A Frame threads
The way that I look at it, is that we are guests in any Country we visit, and as such, we should respect their laws and ways.
Similarly, as we ask, or want visitors to our own Country, to respect our values!
If we can't do this, then we have no right to complain about visitors to Blighty.
I speak, having been pulled over for numerous roadside traffic controls during my International Trucking days, generally without problems!
13-03-2015 18:44
namder
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholsong View Post
Mike

I think that nobody is disputing your advice about what the Spanish law currently says.

I think the argument is about whether the Spanish law actually conflicts with the principle that if a vehicle is legal in its country of registration it is legal throughout Europe.

A similar problem has existed for some time in Poland, where the government has been refusing for years to re-register RHD cars. The Poles lost at the European Court and are in the process of changing the law.

I suspect that if anyone challenged the Spanish applying the no 'A'-frame law to a British vehicle their government might also lose at the European Court.

Of course, that as yet has not happened, so meanwhile people are at the mercy of the Franco-style Guardia - outside towns. That in itself is a contradiction, if the local police are not enforcing the same law.

Geoff

But they are not legal in this country. See my earlier post.

John
13-03-2015 18:35
nicholsong
Quote:
Originally Posted by javea View Post
Hi The Nomad,

Like you I am fully aware of Spanish traffic laws having had a house in Spain since 1986 and I just cannot understand why people will not accept that Spain and the UK have different traffic laws.

It has always been illegal to tow a car in Spain - the only people allowed to recover cars are the Grau, you can't just put a tow rope between cars and allow one to tow the other. My car insurance in Spain automatically includes breakdown cover for this very reason.

I am getting to the point of thinking that there is no longer any point in trying to help and advise some people about this topic. They just don't want to see the logic of the law so perhaps we should just let them get on with it and get fined - helps keep our tax bills down!

Mike
Mike

I think that nobody is disputing your advice about what the Spanish law currently says.

I think the argument is about whether the Spanish law actually conflicts with the principle that if a vehicle is legal in its country of registration it is legal throughout Europe.

A similar problem has existed for some time in Poland, where the government has been refusing for years to re-register RHD cars. The Poles lost at the European Court and are in the process of changing the law.

I suspect that if anyone challenged the Spanish applying the no 'A'-frame law to a British vehicle their government might also lose at the European Court.

Of course, that as yet has not happened, so meanwhile people are at the mercy of the Franco-style Guardia - outside towns. That in itself is a contradiction, if the local police are not enforcing the same law.

Geoff
13-03-2015 18:32
namder
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilmac View Post
This is going away from the OP's post (doesn't it always?)

The key point is that when a car is on an a-frame and conforms to all the relevant lighting and braking regulations then it is regarded as a trailer and it is perfectly legal for a UK registered combination to circulate the roads of Europe like this.
WRONG!!!!

This is from my post on a rival site:

From the current C&CC magazine:

"Club members are being advised not to use an A-frame to tow a car in Europe, following guidance from the DfT.
The 1968 Vienna convention on road traffic says a citizen of one state may use a vehicle in another state as long as it is legal in his or her own country. However, the DfT says the assumed protections offered by the Treaty do not cover A-frames because they post-date it and are therefore outside its scope.
The Club's Technical Team has been told the UK doesn't intend to implement recent changes to EU light-trailer brakes regulations. This means that A-frames will remain acceptable within the UK.
Following this clarification, the Club strongly recommends that if members wish to tow a car behind a motorhome in mainland Europe then it must be on a trailer."

Hope this helps
John
13-03-2015 18:25
sallylillian I think the question that Adgy was simply asking was who on this immense forum has been stopped and fined themselves. Not, I know a geezer wot was fined xxxx Euros.factually for all our benefit? As for breaking the traffic laws, A framing is only one, there are many others which do not attract so many emotional responses. For me the law is clear and for the avoidance of doubt I tow my car on a trailer. But when you see many A framing in Spain it would be good to census the risk.
13-03-2015 18:16
javea
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNomad View Post
Shock horror. .....uk law doesn't apply in Spain. UK law applies in the UK.
Spanish laws apply in Spain. On any public road in Spain the towing of one road vehicle with another is illegal. Always has been.
If you tow a car on an aframe, it is NOT legal even in UK law.....It is neither proven as legal nor illegal. No court case has yet been brought to resolve the grey area that such a practice represents.
But outside of the uk such minutae are a total irrelevance. It is blindingly obvious that in fact it is a car that you've bolted an A frame to. Any Spanish trafico officer can see that.
When you tell him it's not a car but a trailer, he'll laugh in your face (if he does not arrest you for insulting a Guardia officer of the law with your ludicrous suggestion). When he demands to see the papers for the car he will see that it is matriculated as a car.
you can run the risk of being nicked in Spain and Portugal and other mainland European countries by A-framing. Odds are that you'll get away with it...most Guardia are more interested in other traffic offences. But if you are unicked I'd very very strongly advise that you don't start arguing the toss with the Police officers. It'll get you nowhere quick except to a police cell, or quite possibly to hospital first with concussion and then to a police cell....the police here really are a force, not some castrated 'service' that the UK police have been reduced to.
Hi The Nomad,

Like you I am fully aware of Spanish traffic laws having had a house in Spain since 1986 and I just cannot understand why people will not accept that Spain and the UK have different traffic laws.

It has always been illegal to tow a car in Spain - the only people allowed to recover cars are the Grau, you can't just put a tow rope between cars and allow one to tow the other. My car insurance in Spain automatically includes breakdown cover for this very reason.

I am getting to the point of thinking that there is no longer any point in trying to help and advise some people about this topic. They just don't want to see the logic of the law so perhaps we should just let them get on with it and get fined - helps keep our tax bills down!

Mike
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome