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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 00:03
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Originally Posted by TheNomad View Post
Sorry Dave, you've made a terrible, awful and deadly mistake... you've actually trusted a teenage crayon scribbler at the DM.

Google and check the actual majority equity ownership of those companies...the DM is wrong wrong wrong on most them!
(As usual).
quite so; but even if it were correct, what's the (perceived) problem?
They invest foreign money in this country, and provide tens of thousands of jobs, and in the main are first class employers.
I worked for Mercedes for 8 years and Siemens for 20. Another shipping company I spent 7 years with is now German-owned. All three excellent employers, proud to work for them and good pensions to boot.
My eldest son works in UK for an American chemical company, been with them over 10 years, still got a final salary pension, another excellent employer.
I see nothing detrimental about foreign ownership.

I travel not to go anywhere, but to go. I travel for travel's sake. The great affair is to move. (Robert Louis Stevenson)
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 06:41 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNomad View Post
Sorry Dave, you've made a terrible, awful and deadly mistake... you've actually trusted a teenage crayon scribbler at the DM.

Google and check the actual majority equity ownership of those companies...the DM is wrong wrong wrong on most them!
(As usual).
My profuse apologies;

Boots UK - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_UK
In 2007, Alliance Boots was bought by Kohlberg Kravis Roberts and Stefano Pessina, taking the company private, and moving its headquarters to Switzerland, the first ever FTSE 100 company bought by a private equity firm.

Harrods was sold by Mohamed Al Fayed, its previous owner, to Qatar Holdings, part of the Qatar Investment Authority, the state's sovereign wealth fund, in May 2010 for a reported £1.5 billion.12 Oct 2014

Selfridges - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selfridges
Lewis's and Selfridges were then taken over in 1965 by the Sears Group owned by Charles Clore. Expanded under the Sears group to include branches in Manchester and Birmingham, in 2003 the chain was acquired by Canada's Galen Weston for £598 million.

Fortnum & Mason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortnum_%26_Mason
On 26 March 2011, Fortnum & Mason was targeted by the group UK Uncut, who broke off from the main 2011 anti-cuts protest march to target the tax avoidance policies of Associated British Foods, which, like Fortnum & Mason, is owned by Wittington Investments.

Arcadia Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia_Group
Arcadia Group Ltd is a British multinational retailing company headquartered in London, United Kingdom. It owns the high street clothing retailers Burton, Dorothy Perkins, Evans, Miss ... Also in 1985, the Group acquired Debenhams, then the largest department store group in the UK. The large store Browns of Chester,

Arcadia Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia_Group
In 2002, Arcadia Group plc was bought by Taveta Investments, owned by Taveta Ltd based in Jersey. Taveta Ltd is owned by Philip Green's family, the only director is Tina Green the wife of billionaire Philip Green accordingly Arcadia Group became a private company and was delisted from the London Stock Exchange.

P&O Ports returns to business as 'star pick' DP World eyes new ...
theloadstar.co.uk/po-ports-returns-to-business-as-star-pick-dp-world-eyes-new-markets/
26 Mar 2015 - Dubai-based operator relaunches P&O Ports brand for smaller terminals ... that the units were sold on to an American investment company.

MG Rover went into administration in 2005 and its key assets were purchased by Nanjing Automobile Group, with Nanjing restarting MG sports car and sports saloon production in 2007. During that year Nanjing merged with SAIC Motor (the largest vehicle manufacturer in China).

BAA Limited - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAA_Limited
BAA comes from British Airports Authority and is owned by a group led by Grupo Ferrovial, a Spanish firm specialising in infrastructure. The company's head office is in The Compass Centre on the grounds of London Heathrow Airport in the London Borough of Hillingdon.

British Steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Steel
It originated from the nationalised British Steel Corporation (BSC), formed in 1967 which was privatised as a public limited company, British Steel plc in 1988. It was once a constituent of the FTSE 100 Index. The company merged with Koninklijke Hoogovens to form Corus Group in 1999.

BBC News - National Lottery owner Camelot sold to Canada teachers
www.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8588321.stm
25 Mar 2010 - National Lottery operator Camelot has been sold to a Canadian teachers' pension fund for £389m. The company, currently owned by a consortium that includes Cadbury, has been running the UK's National Lottery since it began in 1994. ... Camelot's proposed buyer, the Ontario Teachers ..

On 24 September 2008, it was announced that Électricité de France (EDF), the state owned French energy company, had agreed a takeover of the company, paying £12.5 billion. Centrica purchased a 20% share of British Energy from EDF in August 2009.

Jaguar Land Rover - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Land_Rover
Jaguar Land Rover. Jaguar Land Rover Limited is an English automotive company headquartered in Whitley, Coventry, England, and a subsidiary of Indian automaker Tata Motors.

My profuse apologies for not undertaking and posting that more detailed research using Mr Google, I would ever wish to post information that is incorrect. I hope that this selection clarifies where the ownership lays.

Dave

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Any comments above are only MY OPINION and should be read as that.

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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 10:03
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Two big disadvantages of overseas ownership of our industry as far as I can see is the flight of profits overseas and the fact that at times of downturn in the economic cycle it is always the international branches that are shut down first. Or is that too simplistic?

Dick
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 16:07
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Two big disadvantages of overseas ownership of our industry as far as I can see is the flight of profits overseas and the fact that at times of downturn in the economic cycle it is always the international branches that are shut down first. Or is that too simplistic?
To agree with your question at the end Dick would be insulting so I will say instead that there are other views! First though to you and Dave (who liked your post) how do you reconcile the "flight of profits overseas" (which anyway I would dispute) with EU nationals working in this country whose family and dependants are still in their home countries and who they remit a significant proportion of their wages to?

As for profits being sent overseas then I guess you are primarily meaning dividends but I'm not sure that is the case in fact. For a number of overseas owners it is tax disadvantageous to remit profits back home, the USA being a good example. But even if they do, so what? Profits (a dirty word I know to some people) are the return that shareholders get for making their initial investment and for taking what is usually the biggest investor / lender risk. Why shouldn't they be remunerated? They have invested in businesses that often employ thousands of UK (or is that EU?) nationals, pay NI and taxes and contribute to the UK economy - much like EU nationals working here don't you think?

As for UK divisions being the first to close down I don't agree that is generally the case. Most parent companies will make the decision on financial grounds although there is no doubt that some countries (e.g. France?) lean on their businesses regardless of EU and international treaties etc.

Peter
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 16:34
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Peter, some foreign workers send part of their wages home, not profits.

It's well known and much fussed about that many multinationals such as Amazon, Apple, Starbucks and Google use accounting devices (crafty moves) to shift money around to avoid tax. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20560359 This behaviour has nothing to do with dividends.

You say that these companies "have invested in businesses that often employ thousands of UK (or is that EU?) nationals, pay NI and taxes and contribute to the UK economy - much like EU nationals working here don't you think?" It is well know (as referred to above) that extraordinary measures are often taken to avoid paying tax in the UK. EU nationals doing ordinary jobs here, as most do, can't manipulate invoices or pay bogus royalties or inflated prices for imported goods to other companies they own in other countries to move money out of the UK. The vast majority of these workers will be PAYE tax payers and not at all like the businesses avoiding tax.

We may not know whether they might close UK companies down first in the case of a downturn, that'll depend upon how easy or difficult it is after the UK leaves the EU to maintain their businesses here and how they can interact with their other companies. I can't see the EU going out of their way to make that easy but maybe they will if it turns out that they need us more that we need them. I must admit though that I don't believe that for one moment.
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 18:27 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by peribro View Post
First though to you and Dave (who liked your post) how do you reconcile the "flight of profits overseas" (which anyway I would dispute) with EU nationals working in this country whose family and dependants are still in their home countries and who they remit a significant proportion of their wages to?
wages and profit are totally different, a company can pay the minimum wage legally and yet make mega-profits and by careful use of offshore companies, money can be transferred from the Uk via countries such as Ireland and other countries so that the tax paid in the UK is minimised. The wages paid attract NI and PAYE tax, the profits often attract virtually nothing and sadly, they may even be for other UK nationals and kept off-shore to minimise THEIR tax liability.

So those two are far from the same.


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Originally Posted by peribro View Post
As for UK divisions being the first to close down I don't agree that is generally the case. Most parent companies will make the decision on financial grounds although there is no doubt that some countries (e.g. France?) lean on their businesses regardless of EU and international treaties etc.
I believe (but cannot find specific references to it as everything seems to be swamped by Brexit in Mr Google) that it is easier to terminate employment in the UK than other EU countries, but I would be happy to find out more on this.

The one reference I can find is this;

Lengthy document about the EU and employment

but frankly I virtually fell asleep before I got past the introduction......

Dave
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Any comments above are only MY OPINION and should be read as that.

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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 21:01
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Peter I seem to remember that you are an economist.

Are you depending on your interlocutors not knowing the difference between profits, dividends, PAYE and corporation taxes?

I'm sure not but I need your help because your last post seems to have mixed the whole lot together as if they were interchangeable. Almost as Amazon, Google, etc. do.
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 21:24
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Not me Alan (or Dave) who has mixed anything around. Dick was expressing a disapproval of foreign owned companies that send their profits overseas. Nothing about tax avoidance or evasion, nothing about tax havens etc etc - just that and accordingly my reply was about just that.

As for confusing wages and profits, I certainly haven't done that. I was very clear when I said "significant proportion" of wages - I didn't say all. Profits are the excess of income over expenditure as it is with what is remitted by many EU nationals back home i.e. what they have left after having spent what is necessary to enable them to be here.

You really shouldn't try to avoid the issue by the use of semantics!

Peter
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 21:52
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Semantics Peter. Below the belt.

I'll have another look tomorrow. Unusually I've been in the pub.
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 14-05-2016, 23:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peribro View Post
Not me Alan (or Dave) who has mixed anything around. Dick was expressing a disapproval of foreign owned companies that send their profits overseas. Nothing about tax avoidance or evasion, nothing about tax havens etc etc - just that and accordingly my reply was about just that.

As for confusing wages and profits, I certainly haven't done that. I was very clear when I said "significant proportion" of wages - I didn't say all. Profits are the excess of income over expenditure as it is with what is remitted by many EU nationals back home i.e. what they have left after having spent what is necessary to enable them to be here.

You really shouldn't try to avoid the issue by the use of semantics!
Not disapproval of, disadvantages of Peter. You will with your background be familiar with the multiplier effect of commercial churn. If revenue by any means leaves the arena, ie goes overseas there is a loss greater than the amount that has left the country.

An overseas owner who invests heavily by taking over an existing home owned company does it primarily to make money wouldn't you agree?

Dick
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