Long Awaited POLL - Page 12 - Motorhome Forums, Motorhome Discussion, Motorhome Chat

View Poll Results: IN or OUT
IN 34 38.20%
OUT 55 61.80%
Voters: 89. You may not vote on this poll

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post #111 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 17:03
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Keep up at the back
Veiled personal attacks do not reflect well on those making them and tend to be used by those that are losing the argument.
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post #112 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 17:10
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Originally Posted by siggie View Post
Veiled personal attacks do not reflect well on those making them and tend to be used by those that are losing the argument.

Oh Lordy - its getting like that is it? very philosophical...

How the hell was that a "veiled personal attack"? As was stated by siggie on an earlier post, it was tongue in cheek! Plus didn't you see the

Here's another one just in case

Graham
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Which ever way you look at it, we are MUCH BETTER OFF in the EU than outside!


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post #113 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 18:07
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I think the comment about the internet is very valid. Yes its possible increased security and border controls will make life a little harder for terrorists but beware the enemy within. You can make a pretty good bomb just from going round a few DIY stores. Guns etc maybe harder to come by but lets face it they will always be available for the right price no matter how much you beef up security.

Europe is a pretty vast land mass as well. So unless they start putting walls up everywhere there will always be plenty of places to get across. Our stretch of water perhaps makes life more difficult for importing weapons etc but smuggling still goes on. Extra border security might trap more migrants but not determined terrorists.
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post #114 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 18:30
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I was undecided untill a week or so ago but lately decided to vote to stay in. It is not what has been said by either the in or out crowd but simply this:
If we vote to leave we will never get back in under the same terms on the other hand if we vote to stay in and it does really turn pear shaped, parliment can always decide it is time to leave under article 50 of the Lisbon treaty.

I read this on another forum which for me reinforces the above.

1. Nobody can predict with even a smidgeon of accuracy what will be the
impact on the UK economy of a vote in either direction. The world is an
uncertain place, and there are too many individuals who can have a
significant impact on any given out-turn. E.g. Donald Trump, Xi
Jin-ping, David Cameron, Nicola Sturgeon, Angela Merkel, to name but a
very few. Therefore there are no economic arguments that will sway me
one way or the other.

2. Migration is not a real issue. If politicians are honest enough to
tell it like it is, the balance is pretty well even. It just has to be
managed properly, and it either will or won't be, whichever way we
vote. The EU has finally come around to the view that it has to be
managed, which was obviously from the beginning. (See today's
announcement of an agreement with Turkey).

3. Sovereignty has no bearing one way or the other. In the world as it
is today, it is largely an illusion - everybody being dependent on many
others for much of what happens to them. On the margin some issues
might be important, but only on the margin. The things people get
emotional about in arguing about sovereignty are mostly minor ones, e.g.
bent bananas, and, again, don't significantly affect eventual outcomes.

4. The undertakings Cameron received regarding the Eurozone (We'll
never join, and they won't gang up on non-members), no Schenghen for
UK, and "Never closer union for the UK", are about as good as he could
get, given we stay in, and ought to suffice, provided our future leaders
properly look out for us (which can't be guaranteed anyhow),
particularly as other EU members may well be prompted to seek the same
or similar opt-outs.

5. If one takes the helicopter up to 40,000 feet and looks down, UK
can't physically separate itself from Europe. In this day and age, a
22-mile-wide channel just isn't big enough! Freedom of movement is as
much a benefit for Brits. as for anyone else (if they stop to think
about it), as long as it is not Schenghen-ised. The issue is
management, i.e. government/governance, as ever. Given that, any
Europe-wide issue, crisis, disaster, whatever you will, will inevitably
drag UK in, whether we are in the EU or not, as it did at least twice
last century, and many times in the centuries before that, so we might
as well at least have a seat at the table, and help our neighbours sort
things out, hopefully before they get too bad.

6. The answer is to be too big to be ignored (like Germany), which is a
means of getting as much as possible that is advantageous to UK (which
is what all the others try to do for themselves), and to have a
government which will not be bullied. As usual, that particular aspect
is in our own hands. Active and vigorous participation is also a way of
putting a stop to some of the arrant nonsense that goes on, like not
getting the accounts signed off. There are many "sanctions" which can
be invoked from the inside, without having to leave in a huff.

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post #115 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 18:32
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I think the border between Northern Ireland and the South clearly demonstrates the impossibility of closing a border - there can never be 100% security - hence why Donald Trump wants to build a massive wall separating Mexico form the US - even though that will rapidly be surpassed by tunnels or ladders or even hot air balloons to cross the secure wall.... if it ever gets built.....

The internet is a major risk and that cannot be stopped a the border - ask the Chinese authorities how efficient their schemes are at doing that.......

The North Korean regime is th only one that has succeeded and that is by banning the carriage of mobile phones, laptops, tablets etc. - we have a friend who was invited to visit North Korea to check on their manufacture of optical drops for sterility and safety (she works for a German optical mission when not as a pharmacist and has done long periods in Botswana, Kenya, Ethiopia, China and many other countries) she was told to leave all such electronic equipment at the border but did manage to take a digital camera in with her on the proviso that every picture was approved before she left - which was done with careful checks by the authorities), and does any other country want to take that route to control?

With 3D printing it is now possible to build a weapon out of printed material which will fire normal cartridges;


So, if terrorists want to manufacture weapons in a closed country that would not be impossible, but as a Kalashnikov (AK47) costs less than $50 in some countries why bother?

So the UK answer to security by "snooping" on communications is probably the best form of defence and detection of such acts - if you have nothing to fear does it matter if someone else is aware who you are communicating with?

I have no worries that someone may be registering that I am active on MHF - it is hardly going to upset anyone......

If that is the price of safety, I am willing to pay it, but border controls as they exist to enter the UK are correct and do not cause me any concern, if they were removed that would cause concerns.....

Dave

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Any comments above are only MY OPINION and should be read as that.

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post #116 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 22:16
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Originally Posted by erneboy View Post
Yes Peter, that's why I though it worth pointing out that the author of the article Emmbeedee referred to on the other thread is completely bananas.
In your opinion, Alan.
Did you actually read the referenced article? If you did, what did you disagree with?
In MY opinion, the way in which it was set up stinks & was obviously much to our detriment. Well worth leaving regardless of any short term disruption. Plus, & even more important to me, we would regain democratic control of our future & that of our children. If the "in" vote wins, the future will be in the hands of the "appointed" mob of failed politicians & their mates, with no effective democratic control. I'm surprised you're happy with that situation.
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post #117 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 22:48
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I keep hearing people saying they do not want to be ruled by "Brussels" or "Them" or "Foreign rule" etc etc. I dont understand this. Please tell me if I am wrong but are we not a BIG part of "Them"?

As I understand it there is a European Parliament and a European Commission.

The European Parliament is made up of MEP's from the member states and the European Commission is the EU's executive body. It represents the interests of the European Union as a whole (not the interests of individual countries) and is made up of 1 President, 7 Vice-Presidents and 20 Commissioners. The current president is from Luxembourg and each member has a representative on the commission.

From what I can see from the chart below we have 72 MEP's, the same as France and Italy and only topped by Germany but they represent a lot of people in our case. Thats how I understand it. Why then do people insist or telling me we are being ruled by Brussels? Is there a little room somewhere with some people we don't know about making all the decisions or what? If we have all this representation then surely we are a big voice in Europe and should be a big hitter. It looks to me like we should have some clout and Brussels is just a place for an office.



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post #118 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 23:31
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What does "Influence" mean in that table Barry?

The UK has the second lowest (from a quick glance) and Luxembourg and Malta the highest, the UK is close to Germany but what on earth does it mean? Only France has a slightly lower figure to the UK.....

Is it a fiddle factor or a number whereby the votes are worth only 1/11 of the Maltese or Luxembourg votes ? Curious that Luxembourg with Amazon etc is regarded as of the same level of influence as Malta....

But perhaps there is an explanation that I can understand (please DON'T ask me to go and read something - I am struggling big time and our Border Collie is typing this for me......)

(We'll see if that brings about responses from dog lovers......)

Dave

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Any comments above are only MY OPINION and should be read as that.

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post #119 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 23:45
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The table is 10 years out of date


We currently have over 65 million residents and rising


tony


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post #120 of 143 (permalink) Old 22-03-2016, 23:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penquin View Post
What does "Influence" mean in that table Barry?

The UK has the second lowest (from a quick glance) and Luxembourg and Malta the highest, the UK is close to Germany but what on earth does it mean? Only France has a slightly lower figure to the UK.....

Is it a fiddle factor or a number whereby the votes are worth only 1/11 of the Maltese or Luxembourg votes ? Curious that Luxembourg with Amazon etc is regarded as of the same level of influence as Malta....

But perhaps there is an explanation that I can understand (please DON'T ask me to go and read something - I am struggling big time and our Border Collie is typing this for me......)

(We'll see if that brings about responses from dog lovers......)

Dave
I dunno Dave. I was hoping someone on here would. Dont read it but maybe someone else can. Link here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apport...ean_Parliament

I presume its to do with the amount of people they represent. Im pretty sure it doesnt mean its the amount of influence we have at the table
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