I ordered a laptop for a client last week worth £2500 and had it shipped directly to them. The courier (I wont name them just yet) claims its been delivered and has included a photo of the package on a desk. firstly they delivered it to the wrong office on the site. The instructions were clear and secondly of course due to Covid nobody signed for it or saw it being delivered. So it would seem either the courier has swiped it back after taking the photo or someone at the plant has. Sadly CCTV coverage only shows the couriers van leaving site, it does not cover the office where it was supposedly delivered.
Ill be taking this up with my supplier in the morning but would just like to gather as much info as possible as regards who is responsible. Any legal eagles know?
This new thing of not having to sign for stuff due to covid is very much open to abuse I think.
Did the courier name the person they gave it to? That would be an essential safeguard lin lieu of a signature.
A photo of the thing on some desk means nothing.
I'd assume the courier carries insurance. Until you or your client have the item in hand or till the courier provides proof of delivery the responsibility is theirs I reckon.
I ordered a laptop for a client last week worth £2500 and had it shipped directly to them. The courier (I wont name them just yet) claims its been delivered and has included a photo of the package on a desk. firstly they delivered it to the wrong office on the site. The instructions were clear and secondly of course due to Covid nobody signed for it or saw it being delivered. So it would seem either the courier has swiped it back after taking the photo or someone at the plant has. Sadly CCTV coverage only shows the couriers van leaving site, it does not cover the office where it was supposedly delivered.
Ill be taking this up with my supplier in the morning but would just like to gather as much info as possible as regards who is responsible. Any legal eagles know?
This new thing of not having to sign for stuff due to covid is very much open to abuse I think.
I can only say what happens here when a delivery is not signed for because of Covid; the PO or courier must leave the parcel in front of somebody, get their name and enter it instead of the signature on their machine. So it may be worth establishing if that system is in place in UK and if so demand the name of the recipient.
Did the sender insure it or do the courier company have insurance, but the sender would have to pursue that route as he was the courier's client.
I should think verification of delivery is a matter for each company. I doubt threr is a national policy.
The procedure with most delivery companies here in Spain is to take details of the recipient. If you aren't known to them they may well want ID too.
It's just occurred to me that the sender can also dictate what proof of delivery is required. Here for example Amazon ask for proof in the form of the name of the recipient on anything of significant. The information about whether or not proof is required is prominently written on the package so the courier is informed. Things of lesser value are marked Bozon to indicate that they can be left in the letter box and need not be handed to an identifiable recipient.
If you haven't paid for the computer up front I'd say that was a bonus. But either way I'd take the view that it's very unfortunate has nothing to do with you or your client since it cannot be shown that it was delivered.
Under the Consumers Tights Act, the vendor us responsible until the item is DELIVERED TO YOU OR YOUR NOMINATED NEIGHBOUR OR SAFE PLACE.
In your case your nominated neighbour is the personnit should have gone to and until they say "Yes, I have it" it remains the responsibility of the company selling it.
Your contract is with THEM, not the Courier Company. So photographing it on some random desk does not count even in the current times. They may say "Oh it was in the office, but until someone signs for it, or their details are recorded by writing or photograph so they can be traced. It remains up to them.
It is clear cut according to Which who administer much of these points, indeed HMG sends you to them via their link.
I have not paid for it up front. The courier in the tracking log has put a name down for a member of staff who received it but apparently he just shouted across the yard to this person for a name. There was nobody in the unit where he left the parcel to witness it being left. I just have a feeling its going to be a bit of a battle this one. Its not my favoured supplier but I do use them a lot. If it was my other wholesale supplier I would be less worried but this lot are a bit of a nightmare to deal with.
My suspicions that something fishy is up have been risen more because the Courier tracking states they tried to deliver it on Thursday but there was nobody there. Thats rubbish as I made sure someone was in the office for the delivery time and the quarry where they eventually supposedly wrongly delivered it on Friday is constantly occupied.
Its a farm office with a massive Quarry quarter of a mile beyond the main office. There are portacabin offices up in the quarry but there isnt always someone in them but there is always people about in the Quarry. I never ever get stuff delivered to the Quarry as I know it will be safer in the farm office. So in effect even if they have delivered it, they delivered it to the wrong place.
Sadly this kinds thing has been going on since the Littlewoods catalogues days. We were obliged to get the printed name after a squiggle signature when leaving 'White Goods' at the delivery address or neighbours. Too many smaller items went missing.
I had three dehumidifiers sent by a mail order co because the first two did not arrive.
Eventually a local farmer friend of mine called on day to say to say there were two large boxes addressed to me sitting on the front porch of a vacant bungalow up a lane he had been on to get to one of his fields.
I had three dehumidifiers sent by a mail order co because the first three did not arrive.
Eventually a local farmer friend of mine called on day to say to say there were two large boxes addressed to me sitting on the front porch of a vacant bungalow up a lane he had been on to get to one of his fields.
Well of course there is always the chance that it is actually there but only if someone who isnt there today has moved it but that seems extremely unlikely. Or its just possible the Courier decided to take it away as they felt it wasnt really safe leaving it in an empty office but then its showing delivered with a photo on the tracking system.
I hope you are right Dave but if the courier turns round and claims proof of delivery and the supplier sides with them I foresee it getting messy. If that happens at the same time I still have to find another £2500 laptop for my client and ship it out.
The deliverer would have to prove it was delivered to the named person, or company name, on the order. Until that is done withhold payment.
If paying via credit card and they have taken th payment raise a dispute over non-delivery, the same is PayPal.
If the courier says he has the details of who he gave it to, ask for them and check whether the name and signature is one that you recognise, if not they cannot be an authorised recipient. The onus is entirely on the company supplying the goods to prove that THEIR chosen courier has delivered it to the correct person, there is no alternative available.
You can, and should, look at the Small Claims Court procedures;
You are well within their limits and may have to attend a hearing, but the chances are high that the vendor would not as it is cheaper for them not to contest the issue.
The system does work and the threat of such action is often more than enough if they fail to admit that it has not been delivere in accordance with the order.
I am on 30 day terms with the supplier Dave so I guess if it gets nasty I can just not pay but that wont be the end of it. They could end up taking me to court for none payment but hopefully it will get sorted tomorrow.
They won't go to court unless they have proof of delivery. That would be unwinnable.
They might bluff that they would though.
I would be very surprised if the delivery company didn't carry insurance and more so if the supplier didn't do so too on an item of such value.
Express amazement and ask if they are datf enough to send something of that value uninsured, and do it by email so you have a record of it. I can't see a court finding that you or your client are at fault in any way.
The costs of the small claims Court are less than £100, returnable if/when you win. No legal representation is allowed, it us purely done on the submission, electronic or paper in advance, on the day us not acceptable.
If the opposition do not turn up, as is very likely, you would win fully by default.
For any company, the time taken for such a Claim and the costs associated with going from where they are to your nearest scc makes it a financial disaster for most companies.
The what used to be Disgance Selling Regulations and now the various Acts that cover such sales means that the balance is heavily against them. They have the onus of proof and to simply quote a Courier Co is insufficient to justify them saying it WAS delivered; they have to have an identifiable person at the re ipients address who has signed and who's identity can be traced. Only then will the Court accept delivery of A BOX but the contents are not provable even by that. There have been numerous examples where people ordering something and being sent a box, that box contains a brick or something similar.....
The Courier Co can prove the parcel was delivered, but cannot prove the contents, so if the recipients says it was not there it is hard to prove that it was.....l. Vendor's responsibility.......
My son in law ordered a £200 bicycle via FleaBay, a box arrived containing a screwdriver set and there it sat until FleaBay intervened, the Co. could prove a parcel was delivered and rejected the idea of it NOT containing the bike. In the end, he was advised to return it to the sender n it's original packing, traced and at that point FleaBay issued the refund.... There are many such scams around but most couriers are totally honest although may be careless they are also self-employed and overworked as regards timings for deliveries.
The problem is that if they take Baz to the small claims court I'm pretty sure it will be their local one and so it might be hundreds of miles away from him. He has no case to bring against anyone, so if it happens it will be them against him. But they'd be stupid to try that.
I very much doubt it will arise. I used to recover bad debts that way all the time, but it was a while ago. It was always heard in our local courthouse, not where the other party lived, and only once was it contested by a chap who was very angry, made a fool of himself and lost.
I suspect that when I was using small claims you could send a representative in place of the MD or proprietor if necessary, after all who'd appear on behalf of Elevation IT PLC but a representative of the company. I really don't remember but in my case it was company name versus the individual debtor. I never had to name my representative or detail his relationship with me. I'd say I could have sent a solicitor. It isn't a court though.
He would only need to use the scc if the company has been paid and won't now either deliver or return.
The company has no claim against Baz as they have not delivered so they are in breach of the contract between him and them. So there is no reason why they could use a scc since they have not delivered, they have no claim at all.
Most of it is done on line in advance if it is needed, but if he has not paid he does not need to use a scc simply because the contract has not been completed - the goods were not delivered to his no,boated person - the one that Barry is working for.
He would only need to use the scc if the company has been paid and won't now either deliver or return.
The company has no claim against Baz as they have not delivered so they are in breach of the contract between him and them. So there is no reason why they could use a scc since they have not delivered, they have no claim at all.
Most of it is done on line in advance if it is needed, but if he has not paid he does not need to use a scc simply because the contract has not been completed - the goods were not delivered to his no,boated person - the one that Barry is working for.
I agree that they would not win in a small claims court, but there is nothing to prevent the supplier from completing the forms and getting a date and place for the claim to be heard. If someone incorrectly thinks they have a case it might have to go before the arbitrator to be considered and rejected on the grounds that there is no case.
Frustrating day today. Took an age to get to speak to my account manager and I only managed to get out of him about an hour ago that an investigation has started which can take 3-5 days. Meanwhile the client is chomping at the bit. Supplier suggests ordering a second laptop and sorting out the disputed one later. So I am about to do that and then the client suggests waiting until the investigation is over as they dont want to be billed for two laptops. I had no intention of billing them twice anyway but just agreed to that and said nothing.
Im wondering if my client should get the police involved but of course we have no idea who has it. The courier, a member of staff or an opportunist lurker.
I think if anything the courier is in the wrong for firstly delivering to the wrong place and secondly leaving it in an empty unlocked office. I asked about the insurance and apparently according to my account manger they are only covered for £50!! FFS! What a royal PIA.
Nothing is simple any more is it. Just when you think everything in the garden is coming up roses, 23rd. June 2016 happens and everything falls off the edge.
I managed to get the £180 refunded for a PC but the £55 postage and £16 for adaptors I can whistle.
If these people routinely send valuable equipment by courier/post and don't have annual insurance to cover losses and theft they are taking a very stupid risk. Presumably the figure that the bearing the risk themselves is cheaper than insuring. That's their decision.
You are not a party to this and neither is your client. You ordered it to be delivered to your client and till that happens and there is a record of a named person at your client's address having taken delivery of it your supplier has not made the supply.
It may get messy, but you are not part of whatever mess ensues and neither is your client.
I assume you have a family solicitor Baz. Run it past him/her by email and act on what they say. Best you stay out of it. You being a decent sort may get you sucked in to something you have no part it.
I hope its sorted out soon Baz. I don't know if it would help but I quized A delivery driver on this a couple of weeks ago. The photo will have a very accurate GPS stamp on it. He reckoned it was more secure than any signing system, especially if as he did it included a pair of shoes (yours) or front door.
Insurance for expensive laptops in transit is really expensive. So I guess they just wing it. However that IMO makes it more likely they will try and get awkward over it. If their investigation concludes that the item was delivered then it very much is my problem I think as I ordered it and the contract is between me and the supplier. Yes there will be a GPS Stamp on the photo I guess and it will show an office in the Quarry but not the Farm office quarter of a mile away or so where it was supposed to be delivered.
Apparently the courier did shout across the yard for a name which they put on the delivery thingy online but the person that gave the name was heading off somewhere else and not present in the office when it was supposedly left there and photographed.
The only way i can stay out of it is just by not paying for the goods if they decide it was delivered properly and then I assume they will come after me for the money. Im then left with the dilemma of maybe being taken to court or insisting my client coughs up to me (I already invoiced him on Thursday last week when the laptop should have originally been delivered) but i dont want to do either, certainly not the latter really.
I guess there is no point until I know what the situation is. Maybe they will turn round and take responsibility and there is no drama. If not and it gets messy I might have to consider talking to one. Right now its all speculation. I just wanted to hear some opinions though as my gut on this one says its going to get awkward.
You said "it was not delivered to the farm office a quarter of a mile away but to the yard where he shouted across etc."
In which case it has NOT been delivered in accordance with the contract and their GPS time stamp will confirm ther delivery to the wrong place, far from confirming they did deliver, it confirms that they did NOT deliver to the correct address but just somewhere else of the courier's choosing.
In this case, their technology (the courier company) will work against them. After that it is the suppliers problem as THEIR contract is with the courier company, yours is with them to complete the service. Meanwhile let your client know the invoice has been cancelled and a new one will be issued as soon as the equipment is confirmed as being delivered. That way you maintain goodwill - so important in business.
Sorry, should have put this in earlier.
Does the Farm Office, a quarter of a mile away, have a different postcode to the quarry ?
If it does, what address did you put on the order, including postcode, and what full address was put on the parcel by the company ? If the postcodes are different, that is more evidence of the Courier doing his own thing - perhaps because of time pressure for the number of deliveries ? That would be a significant error UNLESS the company put the quarry postcode and address rather than the Office. You SHOULD be able to check what address including postcode you put on AND what address THEY put on - that also might indicate either, the company's fault giving the wrong address, or the courier's fault for failing to deliver it to the correct address.
You said "it was not delivered to the farm office a quarter of a mile away but to the yard where he shouted across etc."
In which case it has NOT been delivered in accordance with the contract and their GPS time stamp will confirm ther delivery to the wrong place, far from confirming they did deliver, it confirms that they did NOT deliver to the correct address but just somewhere else of the courier's choosing.
In this case, their technology (the courier company) will work against them. After that it is the suppliers problem as THEIR contract is with the courier company, yours is with them to complete the service. Meanwhile let your client know the invoice has been cancelled and a new one will be issued as soon as the equipment is confirmed as being delivered. That way you maintain goodwill - so important in business.
Sorry, should have put this in earlier.
Does the Farm Office, a quarter of a mile away, have a different postcode to the quarry ?
If it does, what address did you put on the order, including postcode, and what full address was put on the parcel by the company ? If the postcodes are different, that is more evidence of the Courier doing his own thing - perhaps because of time pressure for the number of deliveries ? That would be a significant error UNLESS the company put the quarry postcode and address rather than the Office. You SHOULD be able to check what address including postcode you put on AND what address THEY put on - that also might indicate either, the company's fault giving the wrong address, or the courier's fault for failing to deliver it to the correct address.
I dont know but I have a feeling it might. I just googled the postcode I put on the order and in Google maps its the main road about 100 yards from the Farm office. The Quarry is even further away. I have emailed the office manager to check. Trouble is the company name is the same and its on the PO. Still it clearly states "Farm Office" and the two contact names and a number. However Im not sure all that went on the label that the courier had. No way of knowing. It was on my PO though. I guess I would need to see sight of the label that actually went on the box. On the couriers tracking it clearly states Farm office and the postcode I put on though. Actually it says Farm Of.
Labelling is up to the sender. You gave the right and full information. If they neglected to put that on the label that's their responsibility.
You said farm office the courier should have verified he was at the farm office and apparently didn't. If he did ask and was told it was the quarry office then he knowingly left it in the wrong olace.
Post code does not matter. Our local post code at home covers several miles of road. It's not good enough just to deliver within a postcode area.
Baz unless you want to end up paying for some or all of this mistake you need to refute all responsibility on behalf of your client and yourself. You now have a raft of good valid points to put to the sender. Email them a polite missive outlining them and asking what they propose to do to satisfy the order you placed with them.
Sorry Baz, but you seem to be being too nice and sympathetic for your own good.
You can imagine what I'd have told any supplier of mine in the circs you've outlined.
Labelling is up to the sender. You gave the right and full information. If they neglected to put that on the label that's their responsibility.
You said farm office the courier should have verified he was at the farm office and apparently didn't. If he did ask and was told it was the quarry office then he knowingly left it in the wrong olace.
Post code does not matter. Our local post code at home covers several miles of road. It's not good enough just to deliver within a postcode area.
Baz unless you want to end up paying for some or all of this mistake you need to refute all responsibility on behalf of your client and yourself. You now have a raft of good valid points to put to the sender. Email them a polite missive outlining them and asking what they propose to do to satisfy the order you placed with them.
Sorry Baz, but you seem to be being too nice and sympathetic for your own good.
You can imagine what I'd have told any supplier of mine in the circs you've outlined.
I suggest you sit down and draw a diagram of the parties involved and insert between them where ther are contractual obligations and under what contract. It may help you to see where the legal responsibilities lie and that is what should direct your actions.
The only person I have so far been able to speak to is my account manger. He agrees with me that Im not at fault but he is just a young chap flogging computers and way down the chain.
I have made it absolutely clear though that there is no way whatsover that I will be held responsible and I wont be paying for the goods.
Until I get something from higher up the command chain I think all I can do is sit and wait to see what they come back with after the investigation. Then I can put forward the points we have discussed here (assuming they dont take responsibility). Trust me. I may come across as a "Good chap" and diplomacy is one of my key attributes in business but the gloves will come off if they do try and stick it to me.
I'm sure you are fed up listening to me on this Baz.
But now is the time to make your whole case plain to them. If you wait till they've made their decision on how they will play it you may be getting a message from a senior person who may have made the decision based only on what his own people have told him. You can be fairly sure that if there was an error at their end, with say providing the correct address and naming the recipient/s, it will not have been mentioned or at least little will have been made of it.
Once a decision has been made they are likely simply to defend it rather than to reconsider it. People don't like to have to overturn decisions they've made and bosses will often rely on what their staff tell them and then simply become defensive if challenged. I'd say you are in danger of lining the thing up to turn out messy.
I recommend that you present all your information now and ensure that the decision maker gets to see it. What have you to lose by doing that?
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