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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 19:54
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Hang on boys.


As an ex Boeing 737 Captain, Aviation Lawyer and one closely involved in accident investigations on behalf of insurers, I would advise caution in taking this report at face value.


I would prefer to wait until the official accident investigation report in its final form is published.


Some of the above report may indeed be factual, but maybe not complete.


Too much of thr report connects the facts to reasons and motivations. That is not the way accident investigations normally present the facts of an accident. There was, especially in the early part of the report, quite a lot of hyperbole, unlike other accident reports.


I advise caution.


Geoff

Last edited by nicholsong; 04-05-2019 at 19:57.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 20:52
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Surely an aviation lawyer can tell whether the report referred to is an official report or not?

I assume you're being kind and not saying what's obvious to you. Clearly you would know the difference between an official report and a bogus attempt at one.

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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 21:27
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Originally Posted by erneboy View Post
Surely an aviation lawyer can tell whether the report referred to is an official report or not?

I assume you're being kind and not saying what's obvious to you. Clearly you would know the difference between an official report and a bogus attempt at one.

I did not even think it pretended to be an official one, nor did the author present it as one.


I merely cautioned against reading it as being the truth, the whole truth etc.....


Geoff
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-05-2019, 22:24
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The Boeing boss threw a fair bit of caution to the wind at his televised press conference two days ago as during questioning he confirmed much of the technical detail in the document posted by Ray. I did think it strange that he was prepared to go into so much detail before the accident investigation team had formally reported. Although it did come across as a bit of a personal damage limitation exercise to me.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-05-2019, 06:40 Thread Starter
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This isn't the only report/news item thats been publicised indicating Boeings cavalier attitude to the constant modifications to the 737 to save development monies.

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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 11:11
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Originally Posted by Pat-H View Post
But the concern now is that the "update" pushed the plane outside the "normal" aerodynamic envelope and that the MCAS addition as a "cure" for its increased ability to stall should have triggered a recertification rather than an "update"
And of course if optional, chargeable, elements of the MCAS had just been included as standard it may have actually worked.
But they equated the addition of the MCAS as a revenue option rather than a necessary additional to resolve a design weakness.
I'd say their loss but of course its those they killed that lost.
Interestingly it now comes out that the AOA out of sink warning light/signal was just something included in a upgrade package and should have been part of the standard software. Only 20% of the airlines bought the upgrade. Now they say it will be in the revised software for all of them.

But as you said the plane has an out of envelope issue. In other words without the software to protect you the plane can be unsafe. Imagine flying in take off mode fairly close to the ground and you reach that point where because of some aerodynamic problem caused by the position and size of the new engines, the plane suddenly pitches up and stalls. That is an unsafe airplane. The problem must have been discovered during flight testing. Otherwise they would not have come up with the MCAS solution to prevent it happening. Having software that keeps pilots from making mistakes is one thing but making a plane that does not conform to normal flight characteristics is another. I think there is a lot more to be discovered here as the story unfolds.
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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 11:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholsong View Post
Hang on boys.


As an ex Boeing 737 Captain, Aviation Lawyer and one closely involved in accident investigations on behalf of insurers, I would advise caution in taking this report at face value.


I would prefer to wait until the official accident investigation report in its final form is published.


Some of the above report may indeed be factual, but maybe not complete.


Too much of thr report connects the facts to reasons and motivations. That is not the way accident investigations normally present the facts of an accident. There was, especially in the early part of the report, quite a lot of hyperbole, unlike other accident reports.


I advise caution.


Geoff
Good to hear from someone who should know what he is talking about. I understood that report to be something written by someone not an official of any sort. But I do think that also from other things I have read it is pretty accurate. I don't imagine you would want to make public your opinion. I guess I am old school in thinking that planes should fly like planes unless they are some sort of stealth fighter. When push comes to shove all the electronics and should be able to be turned off and the pilot should be able to just stick and rudder fly it. even in the age of fly by wire.
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