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Should I replace the EGR?

13K views 31 replies 12 participants last post by  craigrogers 
#1 ·
I had the Ford Transit base serviced last week (2007, 2.4 Duratorq). I had noticed the engine 'missing', especially as it pulled up a long hill. The 'engine block' light also came on as I was taking it over to be serviced.

They ran a diagnostic test and said I need the EGR replaced (at a cost of £373). Apparently it could be just cleaned but he said that tends not to last too long and it would need replaced eventually.

The background is that it's got about 72k km (43k miles) on the clock, 2007 model bought new, March 2008. For the last 17 months it's virtually stood still. After the service when they diagnosed the EGR problem I drove from Belfast to Glenveagh in Donegal (about 150 miles). Going up the long Glenshane Pass there was a lot of missing and whooshing but no sign of the engine warning light. On the way home there was no 'missing' that I was aware of but the engine warning light came on for the last 30 miles or so.

Do you think that after the relatively heavy use that maybe the EGR has cleared itself? Though what I've read on the net would suggest it's not as easy as that.

Some say simply blank the EGR as they're liable to failure. That's not an option for me as I intend to do my bit to reduce noxious gases.

I have read that if it is replaced then the PCM should be updated to give it the best chance of lasting longer.


I've a couple of questions:

1. Is the price for EGR replacement (£373) reasonable?

2. Should I get the PCM updated? If so, is it only Ford workshops can do this?

Many thanks for reading this far!
 
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#2 ·
Jean

1) sounds good to me; I had my EGR replaced in November (Fiat 3 litre) after similar symptoms to you, which went on for ages, but would disappear after a while & come back at the most inconvenient times! cost around £500 at a local garage.

2) what's a PCM? :grin2:


and if you blank / remove the EGR would it pass the next MOT emissions test?
 
#4 ·
Jean

1) cost around £500 at a local garage.
So £373 doesn't sound too bad.

2) what's a PCM? :grin2:
Powertrain Control Module (PCM),is the brains of the engine control system (I had to look it up too!)

and if you blank / remove the EGR would it pass the next MOT emissions test?
Apparently so - the EGR apparently deals with nitrous oxide (if I remember correctly) which is not measured at MOT. But which is bad for our health.

I thought I had an issue with a Ford EGR valve a few years ago. It was changed but it made no difference so my first thought is to make sure there are no other problems in the exhaust recirculation system before shelling out for a new one.
In our case the problem turned out to be a split in the intercooler but could just as easily have been an air leak on one of the hoses or a blocked air filter etc. It took the Ford main agent three days to work out what was wrong, just as well it was under warranty at the time.

So before you rush out to replace the EGR valve I would suggest that you VERY carefully examine all the air hoses, joints and intercooler for leaks.
Also, removing the EGR from a Ford isn't too difficult for a good mechanic, the process of removing and replacing mine took less than an hour from start to finish. The main cost is in the replacement part so I would consider it worthwhile cleaning the existing valve if you can find a good mobile mechanic to do it for you, it shouldn't cost more than a couple of hours labour (around £100 in our area).
Thanks Gaspode - I'll run that by them.
 
#3 ·
I thought I had an issue with a Ford EGR valve a few years ago. It was changed but it made no difference so my first thought is to make sure there are no other problems in the exhaust recirculation system before shelling out for a new one.
In our case the problem turned out to be a split in the intercooler but could just as easily have been an air leak on one of the hoses or a blocked air filter etc. It took the Ford main agent three days to work out what was wrong, just as well it was under warranty at the time.

So before you rush out to replace the EGR valve I would suggest that you VERY carefully examine all the air hoses, joints and intercooler for leaks.
Also, removing the EGR from a Ford isn't too difficult for a good mechanic, the process of removing and replacing mine took less than an hour from start to finish. The main cost is in the replacement part so I would consider it worthwhile cleaning the existing valve if you can find a good mobile mechanic to do it for you, it shouldn't cost more than a couple of hours labour (around £100 in our area).
 
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#5 ·
We had a 2007 transit, but not on a motorhome. We had the same symptoms as you. We were told it could be the EGR valve, but didn't get round to changing it.
3 months on and oil started seeping out of the injector seals and in the end the van had to be scrapped.
Therefore £373 sounds reasonable to me.
 
#7 ·
Gosh, that sounds scary! Do you think fitting a new EGR would have prevented the later problem? (I'm not at all mechanically minded, so I have no idea if the 2 things are related).

My Ford Mondeo (2007, 2.2l, c30k miles) began playing up during the summer of 2014 with the occaisional momentary lack of power. This went on for a year but as is often the case, it would not do it when I took it into my garage to look at - but then did it on the way home >:). Last summer, when on my way down to Heathrow to pick up my wife, it played up big time a couple of times. Once on a busy roundabout at Sandy on the A1 and then on the South Mimms junction to get onto M25. I thought that if I could get down to pick up the wife and then, if need be, get the breakdown service to take us home. Then it cleared and had no more trouble for rest of journey.
I took it to my garage (not main dealer) the next day and they put in a new EGR valve and no problems since - cost £250. I can't remember the ignition light, or any other symbols coming on when it played up. As far as I'm aware, the PCM wasn't reset.

DavidL
Thanks David - that sounds reassuring.
 
#6 ·
My Ford Mondeo (2007, 2.2l, c30k miles) began playing up during the summer of 2014 with the occaisional momentary lack of power. This went on for a year but as is often the case, it would not do it when I took it into my garage to look at - but then did it on the way home >:). Last summer, when on my way down to Heathrow to pick up my wife, it played up big time a couple of times. Once on a busy roundabout at Sandy on the A1 and then on the South Mimms junction to get onto M25. I thought that if I could get down to pick up the wife and then, if need be, get the breakdown service to take us home. Then it cleared and had no more trouble for rest of journey.
I took it to my garage (not main dealer) the next day and they put in a new EGR valve and no problems since - cost £250. I can't remember the ignition light, or any other symbols coming on when it played up. As far as I'm aware, the PCM wasn't reset.

DavidL
 
#8 ·
Now correct me if I am wrong...:surprise::surprise: as I am sure you will.
But I was of the understanding that the EGR gets clogged up through lack of use or too many low/short rev journeys. A little bit like the moisture in the rocker box syndrome.
Would a blast along the motorway/dual carriageway keeping the revs around the 2500/3000.say 4th instead of 5th or 6th gear.clear a lot of the cobwebs out once in a while.Or is this too much of an old fashioned idea.:grin2::grin2:

try it before you spend out money, plus as said check all hoses.

cabby
 
#10 ·
There used to be a lot of this happening with the Vauxhall vectra, we think it was the servicing schedule that did not have an oil change frequently enough on a low usage vehicle, but the factory ignored this

cabby
 
#12 ·
My Mondeo was/is a low mileage car, doing mainly short journeys (I work from home). When the problem first occurred I suspected the EGR valve and tried to give the engine "a blast", but it had no overall effect. Apart from the last journey, the rest of the time the engine would just seem to "miss a beat", then be okay again for a few weeks. On the journey down to Heathrow, when I experienced two major loss of power, I remember seeing a large plume of white smoke from the exhaust. Then it all cleared and no further trouble on the journey :grin2:. I wish I had inspected the removed EGR valve to see if it was gummed up etc, such that it may have been possible to clean it. Apart from tyres (low profiles :frown2:), the £250 is the only cost that I have had on the car since I bought it at 6mths old - a great car (estate).

DavidL
 
#13 ·
I had problems a couple of years ago where the engine warning light would come on and the engine would go into low power mode i.e. seemed to be limited to 2500 revs !

I have an OBDII adaptor and could clear the fault but it would come on again, sometimes within 30 miles and at others it would be 200-300 miles, it seemed to happen

after working the engine hard (up hill) and then slowing down.

I found a new original part on Ebay for £96 and local fitter charged £40 to fit, he also cleaned up the old one and said to keep as a spare just in case !

all ok afterwards but I do make a point of running at high revs for a while each trip to burn out the crud!

Ebay seller still has them at £105 as long as you can identify correct unit

Genuine EGR Valve 2.2/2.4/3.2 Diesel HDi/TDCi/Multijet Citroen/Fiat/Ford/Peugeot

eBay item number: 231022010114

Dave
 
#17 ·
EGR valves on Ford engines are a bit of a pain. More so with higher torque versions. The "Puma" (fitted to Transits from around 2000) engine has known issues with the EGR.

The design is a little better on the newer engines that have a water cooled EGR, but can still clog up.

My 2007 Land Rover Defender that had the 2.4 Puma engine went through 2 EGRs in a few years due to the low down power curve developed for the Defender. My 2.2 Transit Chausson is still running ok as this has the newer water cooled.

As for blanking the EGR, this is done by a lot of tuners out there and is looking like it will be an MOT test soon. They are a flawed design, but do a job when working correctly.

As for the original question, I think £373 to have one replaced is very expensive. It's easy to get to on a Transit and as it's also not a water cooled version (due to it being 2.4 Puma), it shouldn't take any longer than 30 minutes to fit.

The last one I bought was around £100 and took about an hour to fit, but on the Defender it's a tight fit to get to.
 
#18 ·
As for the original question, I think £373 to have one replaced is very expensive. It's easy to get to on a Transit and as it's also not a water cooled version (due to it being 2.4 Puma), it shouldn't take any longer than 30 minutes to fit.

The last one I bought was around £100 and took about an hour to fit, but on the Defender it's a tight fit to get to.
I quite agree Craig, last one we had changed on a Mk6 Transit was all done within 30 minutes. I don't know the current part cost but would be surprised if was more than £150.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Also, just to add.

If you are suspecting a clogged EGR, get it sorted ASAP.

If the EGR sticks open then it will stall at idle and will not start until it closes again. This is because it effectively puts an air leak into the intake system.

There are a couple of ways to determine if your EGR is going to fail.

A little hesitant to pickup revs when accelerating hard as the revs go through around 1000 to 1200 RPM. This is due to the valve not opening/closing properly. It will not be felt when the engine is cold as the EGR doesn't operate when cold.

The other way is to listen for the "Chugga chugga chugga" noise a second after turning the engine off, this is the EGR self cleaning. It should be quick and the noise consistent. If the cleaning noise gets louder overtime or you can hear the noise when driving, it's getting clogged and may stick open.

People who do long Land Rover expeditions usually carry a spare EGR in case one fails. Maybe it's spare to add to the list for long MH expeditions? Although, you're unlikely to be very remote like the 4x4 expeditions.

BTW, it's not just Ford that suffers this issue with EGR valves.
 
#20 ·
Thanks everyone.

An update:
Gaspode, I had emailed them about the possibility of split pipes, or air getting into the system. They asked me to bring the van over again. The MIL was showing on the way over but apparently the error messages were different this time - not implicating the EGR this time. They cleared the messages then took the van for a drive to try to replicate the problem. Nothing. So I brought it back, no further forward, but not £373 out of pocket!

The engine seemed to be running much better, smoother, more lively. I took her up the long run on the M2 to the Glengormley turnoff and there was no missing, whooshing or lack of power.

In the time between visits to the garage I'd run the engine quite hard at times - aware that I'm guilty of driving at low revs and that someone suggested that revving up might clear a clog.

Actually - what would you suggest as a 'rev-up'? I normally drive at between 18 and 24k rpm, mostly about 22-23 I think. What revs should I rise to and for how long?

Craigrogers - I'll look out for the hesitancy at 10-1200 rpm. I must say I've not noticed the "Chugga chugga chugga" - but that's not to say it's not there!! I shall pay more attention.

I remembered that I had stalled at one stage at lights - she stalls very easily but when I was driving her most days I had it sussed.

Anyway, I stalled at lights and I think I may have started the engine again before the coil light went out. I wonder could this have messed up the MIL and put the whole thing into a sulk?
 
#21 ·
Craigrogers - I'll look out for the hesitancy at 10-1200 rpm. I must say I've not noticed the "Chugga chugga chugga" - but that's not to say it's not there!! I shall pay more attention.
Depending on how much sound deadening you have on the bulkhead and bonnet, it might me masked.

If you pop the bonnet and get someone to stop the engine about a second later you should hear the noise, it's very obvious if it's self cleaning.

I've found this on YouTube, it's not the greatest, but when the engine is shut off, you can just about hear the "chugga chugga chugga" noise.

 
#22 ·
My 2.4 duratorq 2008 van had its EGR replaced last year. I paid similar money £370 ish, and was shown the faulty kit. It seems its VERY common.

My advise was to prevent it again, once the engine is warm, give the van some heavy revs just to allow a large amount of exhaust gasses to rush through the device keeping it clean.

My car mechanic suggested having the EGR blanked and the engine re tuned, therefore never needing another EGR.

Ive done 4000 miles since its fix and ive had no issues.
 
#23 · (Edited)
My 2.4 duratorq 2008 van had its EGR replaced last year. I paid similar money £370 ish, and was shown the faulty kit. It seems its VERY common.

My advise was to prevent it again, once the engine is warm, give the van some heavy revs just to allow a large amount of exhaust gasses to rush through the device keeping it clean.

My car mechanic suggested having the EGR blanked and the engine re tuned, therefore never needing another EGR.

Ive done 4000 miles since its fix and ive had no issues.
Depending on which EGR was fitted, it might never have the problem again. I did hear that there was a newer type that had a slight modification to stop it sticking.

A lot of people do what your mechanic is saying, however, it's not legal and manufacturers fit them because they have to. It's not covered by the MOT, but soon will be so some sources say (other sources say not too).

The "engine tune" he mentioned is just an override on the EGR signal so that it doesn't generate an error and light the engine warning light. There are tuners that will also do an EGR close tune and then you can leave the EGR connected but disabled. Personally, I don't like the idea of either, not from a mechanical point of view, but an environment point of view.

The EGR does help keep the Nitrogen Oxide levels low by recirculating exhaust gasses, the gasses going back into the combustion system reduces the combustion temperature which lowers the NOx emissions. The downside is that you do loose a little power by recirculating and of course the sooty sticking issues.

Flawed as they are, they do help keep us a bit greener.
 
#24 ·
Craig, I'm not able to hear that chugga chugga but I haven't had anybody here to turn the engine off for me.

Disappointingly, I had the 'missing' again the other day (though not the MIL warning) - it was pretty cold at the time; wonder had that anything to do with it?

Robbo - were your symptoms the same as mine?
 
#26 ·
I had no signs what so ever, except the warning light on. Although i did find on hard acceleration there was a slight power loss.

Ive always been a fan of letting engines warm before driving off, so that may hide any chugging.

The fault was a quick diagnosis on the plug in telematics devise.
 
#29 ·
I haven't had any missing on my latest journey but was appalled to see the amount of white smoke emitted when I first started the engine, and when I pulled away up the road.

Is white smoke a sign of the EGR not working?
It could be if there it's slightly open and causing it to burn too lean.

However, it could also be an issue with low fuel pressure.

There is a VCV (Volume Control Valve) that can sometimes act up on the Puma engine. This controls the amount of pressure going through the fuel rail to the injectors.

Are you sure it's white smoke and not white steam? Particularly this time of year (and earlier), condensation build up in the exhaust can look like white smoke.
 
#30 ·
No Jean, it's a new Pope.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Haha, I set myself up for that one!

...
Are you sure it's white smoke and not white steam? Particularly this time of year (and earlier), condensation build up in the exhaust can look like white smoke.
There seemed to be rather too much of it to be steam, but you might be right.
 
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