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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 18-04-2012, 19:12 Thread Starter
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Renault Master Mm35 Dci 120 2.5l

Hi,
I have a Renault Master MM35 DCI 120 2.5L which I got converted into a motorhome. The problem is that I have to refill the gearbox, does anyone know the exact quantity of oil that should be put into the gearbox a 6 speed manual. What type of oil, I plan to put in fully synthetic Castrol Syntrans Multivehicle 75W-90. I know it is vital that the gearbox is not filled right up to the filling plug and that on some gearboxes a specially shaped dip stick is use to measure the oil level.
My motorhome started to vibrate when under load in 4th , 5th or 6th gear, associated with drive shaft wear. Removed shaft found problem but will require to refill gearbox, drained out only 2L was expecting a bit more then that!

I can't believe the vibration problem that I have had was an isolated case so I will post full analysis of the vibration, cause and the solution once I get it rebuilt and hopefully confirmed that I have cured the problem. This may then help others if they get similar symptoms.

Brian.
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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 18-04-2012, 21:37
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Renault master 2006
manual gearbox 75/80
4/5 speed 2.4 litres (looked on autodata but only shows 4/5)

john
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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 22-04-2012, 14:25 Thread Starter
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Renault Master Mm35 Dci 120 2.5l Vibration Problem Sorted

Renault Master MM35 DCI 120 Converted Panel Van to Motorhome
(Year 2006 16000 miles)

Vibration

During the last year we notice a slight vibration when going up hill around 40 to 50 mph, this with time gradually increased causing concern. The symptoms are that the whole of the front of the van feels like it is being shaken from side to side. If you lift off on the power the vibration immediately stops, but as soon as the power is applied again the vibration comes back. I carried out a series of tests to try and establish what was wrong, initially we drove a short test route and proved that the vibration was repeatable. The following is a summary of the tests that were carried out:-

1. Datum run vibration present
2. Had front wheels re-balanced conducted test run no change
3. Swapped wheels front to rear and rear to front, test run no change.
4. Fitted vibration sensors to measure engine movement and passengerís seat vibration, carried out test run. Established vibration at a frequency of approx 10 Hz that we could feel and that engine was vibrating laterally at 10 Hz up to 2.5 mm. At 48 mph the CV drive shaft are rotating at a frequency of 10 Hz (600 RPM)
5. Established that the engine in its mounts has a lateral natural frequency of approx 10 Hz changing slightly depending on the torque being transmitted.

Having determined that the engine had a resonance that was being forced to vibrate at the drive shaft frequency, it was a case of trying to work out which drive shaft the vibration was associated with.
To do this the front wheels were jacked up one at a time and driven by the engine then while monitoring the engine movement the drive shafts were loaded by applying the brakes. From this I found that the near side drive shaft was causing the vibration. At this stage I decided to strip out the near side drive shaft, after a detailed inspection of the shaft and trilobe coupling (part of the differential gearbox) I found wear within the trilobe coupling. The coupling was removed by taking out a retaining spring clip and spacer. The trilobe coupling forms one of the sun gears in the differential. Ordered a new sun gear/coupling and assembled into the gearbox, refitted drive shaft and refilled gearbox with new oil. Carried out test drive with vibration sensors fitted, no vibration felt or significant displacement measured.

The question is why did the coupling wear so quickly with only 16000 miles on the clock, first you have to understand what the function of the trilobe coupling is, its primary task is to transmit torque to the wheel via the drive shaft. It has to do this while changing angle and sliding in and out with suspension movement. When the drive shaft is not directly inline with the differential gearbox the three trilobe rollers have to roll in and out with each rotation. If one of the mating faces in the coupling is worn then with the high torque transmitted the drive shaft applies an axial force to the gearbox as the trilobe roller in the worn area resists rotation. Why does this occur around 45 mph? At this speed the shaft rotational frequency is the same as the natural lateral frequency of the engine that it wants to vibrate at. So instead of all three rollers rolling in and out freely one sits in the same position in the coupling and makes the gearbox move laterally instead. Because the roller starts to stays in one position it gradually wears a dent. Therefore once a indent is formed it rapidly accelerates the wear, so my long term solution to preventing the vibration starting with the new coupling is to fit a damper that resists rapid lateral movement of the gearbox/engine assembly.

Every van gearbox/engine installation will have slightly different vibration characteristics varied by normal differences in manufacturing. Then rarely on occasionally when all the conditions come together you may be unlucky and get this type of vibration problem.

Brian, Transmission Development Engineer
Attached Files
File Type: pdf vibration_168.pdf (427.0 KB, 17 views)
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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 22-04-2012, 14:52
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I am sure I read somewhere that transmission vibration was a well known problem on the Renault Master.

You obviously sound like the right man with the right knowledge to deal with it


Trevor

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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 22-04-2012, 23:04
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Many thanks for a very competent explanation of this problem Brian, I would love to have seen my local Arnold Clark Renault trying to figure this one out.

I did read of a case like yours before we got our 06/07 150 model but also read of some models doing 250000 without problem so went ahead.

25000mls so far and runs as sweet as a nut but if this problem does occur I will have a good idea where to look first thanks to you.
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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 23-12-2012, 19:47
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Re: Renault Master Mm35 Dci 120 2.5l Vibration Problem Sorte

Quote:
Originally Posted by BSB
Renault Master MM35 DCI 120 Converted Panel Van to Motorhome
(Year 2006 16000 miles)

Vibration

During the last year we notice a slight vibration when going up hill around 40 to 50 mph, this with time gradually increased causing concern. The symptoms are that the whole of the front of the van feels like it is being shaken from side to side. If you lift off on the power the vibration immediately stops, but as soon as the power is applied again the vibration comes back. I carried out a series of tests to try and establish what was wrong, initially we drove a short test route and proved that the vibration was repeatable. The following is a summary of the tests that were carried out:-

1. Datum run vibration present
2. Had front wheels re-balanced conducted test run no change
3. Swapped wheels front to rear and rear to front, test run no change.
4. Fitted vibration sensors to measure engine movement and passengerís seat vibration, carried out test run. Established vibration at a frequency of approx 10 Hz that we could feel and that engine was vibrating laterally at 10 Hz up to 2.5 mm. At 48 mph the CV drive shaft are rotating at a frequency of 10 Hz (600 RPM)
5. Established that the engine in its mounts has a lateral natural frequency of approx 10 Hz changing slightly depending on the torque being transmitted.

Having determined that the engine had a resonance that was being forced to vibrate at the drive shaft frequency, it was a case of trying to work out which drive shaft the vibration was associated with.
To do this the front wheels were jacked up one at a time and driven by the engine then while monitoring the engine movement the drive shafts were loaded by applying the brakes. From this I found that the near side drive shaft was causing the vibration. At this stage I decided to strip out the near side drive shaft, after a detailed inspection of the shaft and trilobe coupling (part of the differential gearbox) I found wear within the trilobe coupling. The coupling was removed by taking out a retaining spring clip and spacer. The trilobe coupling forms one of the sun gears in the differential. Ordered a new sun gear/coupling and assembled into the gearbox, refitted drive shaft and refilled gearbox with new oil. Carried out test drive with vibration sensors fitted, no vibration felt or significant displacement measured.

The question is why did the coupling wear so quickly with only 16000 miles on the clock, first you have to understand what the function of the trilobe coupling is, its primary task is to transmit torque to the wheel via the drive shaft. It has to do this while changing angle and sliding in and out with suspension movement. When the drive shaft is not directly inline with the differential gearbox the three trilobe rollers have to roll in and out with each rotation. If one of the mating faces in the coupling is worn then with the high torque transmitted the drive shaft applies an axial force to the gearbox as the trilobe roller in the worn area resists rotation. Why does this occur around 45 mph? At this speed the shaft rotational frequency is the same as the natural lateral frequency of the engine that it wants to vibrate at. So instead of all three rollers rolling in and out freely one sits in the same position in the coupling and makes the gearbox move laterally instead. Because the roller starts to stays in one position it gradually wears a dent. Therefore once a indent is formed it rapidly accelerates the wear, so my long term solution to preventing the vibration starting with the new coupling is to fit a damper that resists rapid lateral movement of the gearbox/engine assembly.

Every van gearbox/engine installation will have slightly different vibration characteristics varied by normal differences in manufacturing. Then rarely on occasionally when all the conditions come together you may be unlucky and get this type of vibration problem.

Brian, Transmission Development Engineer


Hi Brian,
Great explanation!
We have just driven down to bavaria for xmas and 3/4 of the way down i noticed the exact same problem you have described. i have only owned the van for 2 months and 1500 miles.
van is a 2005 mwb 120 dci same as yours but has covered 73k.
i noticed in the service history both drive shafts have been replaced and the gearbox was stripped down on another occaision as 1st and second were not selectable.
The question is what to do now. its about 850 miles home which, i am assuming should be ok as its mostly motorway and ill be doing 65mph in 6th when the problem does not occour. Should i have both trilobe couplings changed? im not sure what a mechanic would make of trying to diagnose this but possibly a range of costly and not needed parts would be involved!
do you still have the part number and cost of the coupling? He has just changed the inner drive shaft boot and charged an hour labour so to remove both couplings shouldnt be more than 3 hours?
appreciate any advice, Glenn
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