Intermittent start first time, always starts second key turn - Motorhome Forums, Motorhome Discussion, Motorhome Chat

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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 17:19 Thread Starter
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Intermittent start first time, always starts second key turn

Intermittent start first time, always starts second key turn.

I've got the above fault, which is not a problem, provided it doesn't get worse! And therefore as a minimum I'd like to understand why it is happening. Now there were engine rpm fault codes which led to a crankshaft sensor change, but that didn't change the above symptoms.

Fiat UK have identified that my van belongs to a batch where there have been wiring loom corrosion issues, so recommend that the wiring loom be checked, which is the next step. If that doesn't show anything, it is swapping the ECU.

A search of Fiat Forums show, spookily, that other Ducato motorhomes 2004-2006 have exhibited this fault, but none of these has answered my emails.
http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/1122...-problems.html
http://www.fiatforum.com/ducato/1944...e-problem.html

Just wondering if anyone on MHF identifies with these symptoms or proposed course of action?

Thanks,

Dave
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 17:32
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Dave
Ours is exactly the same, and has left auto electricians scratching their heads too.
James
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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 17:35
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not on the van, but on my Renault car I had starting problems, and the garage said it was down to one of the glow plugs and replaced them all (I am somewhat doubtful that the garage - Renault main dealers - tell the whole truth about such faults, and try to milk the customer, so not sure whether you can rely my results!!). It did start better afterwards, though

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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 17:42 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP
Dave
Ours is exactly the same, and has left auto electricians scratching their heads too.
James
James, what year is it? And also a 2.8jtd?

Anything significant tried so far that I can eliminate?

Dave
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 17:45
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No sorry my plan is cross my fingers and hope it doesn't get worse.
James
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 17:53
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Dave, if your van has heater plugs (recent vans are direct injection) there is a good chance you can get "spurious" plugs on the net for just a few pounds and at least eliminate that possibility, Alan.



Here from: 3.50 each: http://www.prospectautospares.co.uk/...lugs_335_1.htm

simple to fit.

Mods. I accidentally posted three times and cannot delete the two above. Please leave this one and delete the other two.
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 18:16
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Dave,

You said it's intermittent...

my indicators are like that.................................

No, seriously, have you noticed whether it's dependant on the van facing uphill or downhill? ie, won't start if left facing uphill, will if it's downhill.

Could be a tiny leak in injector pipes letting air in, but not leaking diesel. First crank purges the air, second one starts it?

Just curious as to why its assumed to be electrical?

David
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 18:33 Thread Starter
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James - so what year and is it a 2.8jtd?

David - a diagnosis shows a frequent synchronisation failure between the crank and cam rpm sensors. This leads to rpm indicating zero revs to the ECU and so doesn't fire. Fiat UK are thinking through the possible reasons for the synchronisation failure, and current thought is to check engine loom for corrosion, as this is a known problem for a batch to which my one belongs.

As to whether this will lead to a solution, I wouldn't bank on it!

The glow plugs is interesting, because in Googling the fault a little while ago I found that the glowplugs only work in sub-zero temperatures by design. Ignition relies on rail pressure (which is fine), a fine spray (injectors are either clogged or they aren't) and compression.

It feels electrical to me; just not wiring loom corrosion

Dave
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 19:24
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Fairy nuff as they say!

I had similar problem on a landrover, but it was a crack in one of the fuel pipes - ok if vehicle parked pointing downhill, but drained back if pointing uphill.

Can't they test crank and cam sensors independently? Only ask because our local Fiat garages are the equivalent of a well-disliked motorhome dealer group in terms of competency

Hope you get it fixed soon.

David
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 27-05-2010, 19:30 Thread Starter
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David,

Well apparently not. In fact they have said the received wisdom is that if a certain diagnostic code appears, you replace the crank sensor (cheaper) and if that doesn't cure it, do the cam one. Now, I shall have to ask them why they haven't done the cam sensor - would be reasonable IF it could fail and show synchronisation errors, a waste of time if not. The supplementary is if not, then why did they replace the crank one ......

All I can say is that for reasons I won't bore you with, it is costing them more than me at the moment, which rejects a hypothesis of nest feathering, if not something arguably just as bad .....

Dave
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