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post #31 of 37 (permalink) Old 21-05-2014, 12:30
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Thieawin

First you say:

"I think you are over thinking and complicating"

Then you say:

"The UK and Ireland have been negotiating and trying to sort out cross border recognition and reciprocity of endorsements, penalty points and disqualifications for 20+ years and even with similar systems based on a common source, common law principles and a, mainly, common language, they haven't managed it yet."

I understand that this is just a reporting system but if there is no agreement based on 'recognition and reciprocity' there is no meaning to what is reported, for any offence including drink driving.

For example are roadside fines, based on adjudication by a policeman, to be reported; are sentences imposed by a magistrate in another country to be reported if only a Crown Court in the UK could impose such sentence? I f they are reported should they be taken into consideration by a UK Court? If not what is the point in reporting them?

It seems to me that, because of the incompatibility of all the 28 legal systems operating in the EU, this could end up just being a field day for defence lawyers. OR completely ignored.

For example " Your Honour, are you aware that the offence of which my client was convicted in [State G] is not an criminal offence in the UK?"

"Mr. [Barrister] I am not required to take cognisance of Foreign Law"

"Thank you your Honour"

Geoff
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post #32 of 37 (permalink) Old 21-05-2014, 14:16 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholsong
Thieawin

First you say:

"I think you are over thinking and complicating"

Then you say:

"The UK and Ireland have been negotiating and trying to sort out cross border recognition and reciprocity of endorsements, penalty points and disqualifications for 20+ years and even with similar systems based on a common source, common law principles and a, mainly, common language, they haven't managed it yet."

I understand that this is just a reporting system but if there is no agreement based on 'recognition and reciprocity' there is no meaning to what is reported, for any offence including drink driving.

For example are roadside fines, based on adjudication by a policeman, to be reported; are sentences imposed by a magistrate in another country to be reported if only a Crown Court in the UK could impose such sentence? I f they are reported should they be taken into consideration by a UK Court? If not what is the point in reporting them?

It seems to me that, because of the incompatibility of all the 28 legal systems operating in the EU, this could end up just being a field day for defence lawyers. OR completely ignored.

For example " Your Honour, are you aware that the offence of which my client was convicted in [State G] is not an criminal offence in the UK?"

"Mr. [Barrister] I am not required to take cognisance of Foreign Law"

"Thank you your Honour"

Geoff
And that Geoff shows how you are over thinking and over complicating. Its nothing more than an info exchange. It has no significance other than that and to get to the next stage is, as you observe, and so do I, highly unlikely.

And yes it will mean on the spots will be shared but all over Europe on the spots are appealable, you have a choice of going to court (although in some you have to pay up first and then challenge whereas in common law countries you choose to pay or to challenge

And the greater significance is in the state where the "foreign" motorist commits his offence, it allows checks on licence validity, it allows name and address of vehicle owner to be accessed to send out a summons or equivalent, but again, after that there is no method of enforcement.

And it can help me as a barrister defending a foreign driver. I'm about to say he has an unblemished driving record of 20 years, or he has no previous or is of good character, but in fact he has lots of drive convictions. That is a fact not foreign law and something the court can, and in my practical experience does, have cognisance of in sentencing, and not just for motoring. So say its a drink drive and there is a second one within last 5 year, although the statutory 5 year ban does not apply the court will often impose a greater sentence than the current offence warrants on its own to reflect that this is not a first drink drive conviction
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post #33 of 37 (permalink) Old 21-05-2014, 14:53
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I know personally a guy who is a truck driver for an Irish firm, but he is English. He was convicted of being over the drink drive limit in the UK and had his UK licence revoked for 12 months. He added an "O" to precede his surname, applied for an Irish passport and driving licence in that name, passed his driving test in Dublin first time and was driving trucks again for the same firm within 3 months! I've personally seen the passport and licence so know it has happened!
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post #34 of 37 (permalink) Old 21-05-2014, 15:10
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"but he is English"

"his UK licence"

Inconsistency here - I assume you mean he is British.

As in "British Subject, Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies."
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post #35 of 37 (permalink) Old 21-05-2014, 17:05 Thread Starter
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Pippin, I think he is probably partially correct and partially wrong, as maybe, are you. We don't have UK driving licences or vehicle registration. We have GB licences and registration, covering England, Wales and Scotland and we have Northern Irish licences and registration. Passports and nationality mean nothing in this context.

In stead of DVLA in GB NI has DAVNI and DVLNI.

The man is English, one of the constituent parts of the UK. It may not be a nationality or citizenship, but its a valid description.

He had a GB licence, not a UK one.

He lost his GB licence

He applied for a Republic of Ireland passport and provisional licence, allegedly, and passed his Irish test and, presumably later, HGV test.

Suspect it may be apocryphal as you don't just qualify for or get issued with an Irish passport unless you have Irish antecedents (and you would need to produce a birth certificate etc) or naturalise and it would have to be a long ban in UK (as bans apply to GB and NI) to justify taking test and then HGV test and who in Irish Republic is going to countersign the applications and photos and say they have known him for two years
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post #36 of 37 (permalink) Old 21-05-2014, 18:55
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Thank you Isle of Man man.

Yes I am aware that NI has its own "DVLA".

It's just that "English" tends to be used as a blanket term for UK - as a Manxman you suffer the same as the Scots, the Welsh and the Channel Islanders.

Oh - and the Geordies!!!
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post #37 of 37 (permalink) Old 21-05-2014, 23:25 Thread Starter
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At least iom and CI aren't part of the UK pippin ...

Blue touch paper lit and hasty retreat being beaten
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